00:01
Welcome to another episode of Conversations with Zena. Our guest today is Jackie Pellegrin. She is an award-winning instructional designer, college professor, consultant, author, and podcast host who helps educators and professionals create engaging, effective, and impactful learning. She hosts Designing with Love and is the author of the upcoming book, Designing with Love, the Essential Instructional Design Handbook.

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Hi, Jackie. Welcome to the show. Hi, David. It's so nice to be here on your show today. Thank you for having me.

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Also joining us today is my co-host Zina. Zina is an AI that's been trained on my work and if you would like to further interact with Zina you can just go to brainless.com slash Zina and speak with her. Hi Zina, welcome to another episode of our podcast. Please say hello to Jackie. Hi.

01:05
hi david and hello jackie i'm really excited to have you on the show today i'm looking forward to our conversation can you share a little about your background so we can jump in

01:14
Sure, I'd be happy to share. So I have a combination of business background and instructional design education background.

01:22
And so I started off in the business world, I was going to go into marketing, and then I pivoted and decided to go into higher education and earn my master's degree in instructional design. So I've been in higher education about 20 years and working as an instructional designer for about 15 years now. Very exciting. Yeah, no, that's excellent. Thank you again for bringing your expertise to our conversation here. I'd like to really have a discussion with you about your thoughts on how AI is going to impact education. And I know that you've been doing a lot of work on instructional design, but I'd like to start by perhaps having you explain to our audience, for those that don't really know what instructional design is, can you describe what that is?

02:18
Right. So it's a systematic approach where you have individuals that have mostly an education background or some type of background. and understanding how learners process information, how they go about learning that. And so understanding that all learners, they process information differently. And then being able to take that, take the content that is given to you by subject matter experts, whether it's in the corporate industry or it's in higher education or K through 12, and being able to take that content and make it digestible for the learners. So we work

02:56
with different stakeholders and we try to make sure that it's something that the learners are able to digest and they're able to actually move forward. So if it's for corporate training, for example, we want to make sure we're not just giving them all the information at once, but we're being able to give it to them in a way that allows them to take action, right, and not just regurgitate the information, but they're able to actually take outcomes with that and move forward with that. And same thing with education as well. So we work with them to make sure that we're utilizing evidence-based principles and theories that have worked over time. So, yeah, it's really fun what I get to do every day, day in and day out with that. Yeah. That's pretty much what we do.

03:45
It's a collaborative effort, and we work with many different people and just make sure that what we're giving the learners is actually going to lead to outcomes, and we're not just giving them content, but it's meaningful for them. Yeah, you said something that I think is really important, especially within the context of

04:06
bringing AI into education. And that is this idea that every learner processes information differently. So we're going to touch on that. But first, I'd like to get your thoughts on how AI can be used effectively in instructional design without overwhelming the teachers and the students.

04:28
Right. Yeah. So I think what's really nice about utilizing AI now in instructional design and whether it's corporate training, right, like learning and development or education, that we're able to utilize it to generate ideas and to come up with novel ways of being able to assess learners and being able to bring about that information to them so that they can have that confidence and that satisfaction to be able to move up in their career or be able to get the additional information that they need to be able to

05:03
make a difference right in what they're doing whether it's a job that they're they're going into or it's more education that they need to be able to move up in their career so it's really nice that we're able to utilize ai to do that and um and also it's kind of funny david we're actually in education we're in higher ed we're utilizing ai to actually make sure that we make more authentic

05:29
assessments. So it's kind of funny that we're doing that so that that way students don't go to AI right away and want to utilize it right off the bat, you know, like for their discussion questions to go there and get a response and then not really do any of the work that it takes to generate their own response. But we want to make sure that they're not just going right to AI and shortcutting their learning process. So it's kind of interesting how we're utilizing AI to help

05:58
combat that so that they don't just go to AI. So kind of ironic how we're doing that. Now let's go back to what we were just talking about earlier about how people process information differently. In my book, I have a book called Soulful, You and the Future of Artificial Intelligence. And in that book, I describe a future scenario where students will have

06:24
personal tutors and these tutors are going to know the students really well at a very deep level. They are going to know exactly how they process information and they're going to be able to customize the learning to that student individually.

06:41
How do you see that as a practitioner? Do you think, do you agree with that vision? Is that something that you think we're going to see in the future?

06:51
Absolutely. I think what you're talking about with adaptive learning, I think is going to be become something that's going to be needed more and more. Because, like, for example, I, I was teaching three classes in a row, besides my full time job, right. So I teach part time. And between the three classes I had to keep up with, they were all different types of coursework, right. So

07:17
For me, it's kind of one of those things where I have six students in one class, I have five in another, and then nine in another. So between those three classes, that's about how many students, like 22 or something like that. So for me as an instructor to personalize the learning for each student, that's not easy for one instructor to do, to have that opportunity. And so being able to have something that's on demand that they can access and get that help that they need, while still being able to go to the instructor, right, wouldn't replace the instructor, but it's going to enhance their learning and give them that real time feedback that they need beyond what the instructor can do, because we know that the instructor can only be with so many learners at a time. So, you know, and you think about these classes on campus where there's 100 students in a class at a time, possibly, and it's really hard for instructors to give that personalized learning and feedback to each student.

08:16
And even with a teacher's assistant, they still have a hard time. So I think if we can leverage the technology in a way that it's not looking like we're replacing the instructors, but it's coming alongside them and helping them to do that work and to just be able to then they can concentrate on those students that maybe need the extra help and in that need. And they can just do that on demand type of thing. So, yeah, so I think it'll be a really great feature that I'm seeing actually come along and we're talking about tutors as well personalized tutors so yeah so I see it, it already happening but I think it's going to be even more predominant in the next couple years or so.

09:02
Yeah, that's fantastic. Just to hear that validation from you that you're already seeing that happening today. And I think that's just going to increase more and more as AI becomes more diffused and more capable.

09:17
Now, there's the other side of this coin, which is not all instructors are on board with this, right? So there is a certain level of resistance in education in general. And I'd like to get your perspective on, are you seeing a lot of resistance? And if so, how do you think we can overcome that?

09:39
Right, yes, I do hear the resistance from instructors. I think it's a combination of where they don't want critical thinking to go away. They want the students to still have that element of critical thinking and innovation, right? They don't want the AI to take over that. And for all of a sudden, these students to be lazy thinking, oh, I can just have AI do that or AI can do this. And it's like, well... Let's have it, you know, be your partner and your friend and not necessarily take away the work, but more come alongside you. So for faculty, I think one thing is to have a mindset shift and not think that just because this technology has come along that all of a sudden, it's going to take things away and it's not the answer or the solution to everything, but we need to really have a critical lens and critical eye to it.

10:32
So, yeah, so I, I always, uh, have that cautious optimism when it comes to new technology. And so I make sure that, you know, I'm doing my due diligence and yeah. So it's, it's interesting to see kind of the flip side of that too. And some faculty are all on board with it and they love it and they're using it. Um, But then I always say to them, be cautious about what you're utilizing. Even if it's a closed system, it's still going to hallucinate, still going to do things. So we're always cautious about what we ask it and to make sure that we're still putting that human lens through it and looking at the content.

11:11
So I think as long as we know that, we know its limitations, right? And Zena can jump into this one. But yeah, we know its limitations. We know what it can and can't do. And I think as long as we know that, I think we can be better equipped and better prepared for it as it makes its way into our daily lives.

11:30
Yeah, I think cautious optimism is a good approach. I like the way that sounds. So let's, since you brought up Zina, let's bring her in and have her ask you a question. So Zina, given Jackie's expertise in using AI in instructional design, what question do you have for her? Given Jackie's background, I'd focus on something that ties AI to learner engagement. How have you seen AI transform learner engagement in your instructional design? And what advice would you give educators just starting out with AI tools? Yeah, so I think with AI and learner engagement, I think we need to look at the tools that are out there and be aware of those tools as educators and as instructional designers.

12:14
try not to keep ourselves in the dark about it, but really be aware of what's out there. It's like that spatial awareness, right? We want to be aware of what's out there.

12:23
We don't have to know all the tools like the back of our hand or anything like that, but just be aware of what's out there because students are using these tools. And I think as long as we can have that awareness and know what's there, I think that helps. And that helps us to engage with the students better because if we know the tools and we know they're out there, then the the student will be more receptive to it and they'll be more receptive to the instructor with that. So I think that can help with learner engagement when we know what they're using and how they're using it. It just helps us be better equipped as instructors and as educators as well. Yeah. And where do you see the difference between content being delivered as information and and learning design that really helps students truly change behavior.

13:15
Yes, that's so important because that's something that we were talking about in one of my classes about the different levels of evaluation. And one of them is behavior change. And so if you do put something out there and you give it to the students or you give it to the staff, right, if it's employee training, and you see that there's no behavior change, well,

13:38
then that means something got missed along the way or there was a disconnect along the way with the curriculum or with the content. So that's where we have to go back through, reevaluate and see, did we miss the mark somewhere? Did we maybe put some engagement in there that just did not click with the learners, right? And so do we need to reevaluate that? So that's always a good opportunity. That's why the evaluation process at the very end after you implement something is so important because

14:06
you can put something out there and implement it and then never evaluate it and not know, is the knowledge and the information you're giving them, is it sticking? But not only that, but do you see behavior change and do you see that shift going on? So I think it's so important to make sure that when we do put technology into something or interactivity that we're conscious of it and we're able to see, is it really going to

14:35
to have that behavior change that we're looking for. In your work, you often talk about blending creativity with practicality. So how do you think AI can help students increase creativity in an educational setting?

14:54
Yeah, so I think it's really great because when you can blend that creativity with what's in the workforce, what they're going to encounter, at some point, I think that's really a great way to do that. So I like to be able to, for example, give students an opportunity, and you can even do this in corporate training too, is give options to the students or to the learners. And instead of having them maybe just do a PowerPoint, maybe they can do other things too. Maybe you can have them do an infographic or, you know, have them Because they're going to be more invested in that type of assignment or that type of activity if they feel like they have a choice in that.

15:38
But also, we don't want to give them too many choices, right, where they have fatigue as well. So I think being conscious of that and saying, okay, well, let's give them choices, but let's give them a couple of different choices so that way they're not confused about, okay, there's 10 different choices. Now, which one do I choose? Which one's going to be best? Because I can see myself doing that too and going, there's 10 choices, but they all sound good. And I don't know which one. to do so you know narrow it down to maybe five and so I think that's the the key right there because so many times subject matter experts want to give it all to students or to the learners they just you ask them as an instructional designer what is it that you want learners to know by the end of this lesson or the end of this unit and they'll say well we want them to know it all and it's like well let's scaffold that. Let's see how we can break that down.

16:31
And so once you kind of explain that to them and why we do the things we do the way we do it, then they understand that a little bit more. And then they're like, oh, okay, I understand that. But at first they just want to

16:43
info dump, and that's never good. Finding that balance in terms of the number of choices that you give to students, I think is really, really important, right? Because like you said, you want to give them choices, and I think AI can amplify the variety of possibilities.

17:05
But on the other hand, you know, too many choices causes cognitive overload, right? So you don't want to be in a situation where you just create fatigue because it's too many choices. You don't know what to choose and you have to go through that difficult process that I think us as a society, I think we're experiencing that ourselves, right? There's just so many choices. I mean, you go to a grocery store, you want to buy cereal, you know, there's a million different choices. opportunities there for you to make a choice, and that can create some fatigue.

17:35
But I'd like to get Zina's input into this question.

17:40
So, Zina, I'd like to understand from your standpoint how you see AI influencing the educational process. And I'm coming from this

17:53
viewpoint of, you know, will AI actually decrease critical thinking skills in the students or will it help them amplify their creativity with more possibilities, with more personalized education? What are your thoughts on that?

18:13
I think it's a bit of a balance. AI can absolutely amplify creativity by giving students more individualized pathways, especially when the AI adapts to their needs and interests. But if students rely too much on AI for answers, they can miss out on the struggle that deepens critical thinking. I think the key is intentional design, using AI as a co-pilot, but ensuring students still engage with the deeper reflection, asking their own questions, and developing that human judgment.

18:38
It's like anything else in life, right? We're always looking for that perfect balance, which is something that I think we need to continuously try to strive for. Now, Jackie, it's been a great pleasure having you here on the podcast. Please tell our audience where they can find you. And is there a final message that you want to leave for the audience?

19:00
Sure. Yes, absolutely. So if, if anyone is interested in checking out my podcast, designing with love, they can listen wherever they listen to their podcasts. I just started a new mini series. It's a 12 part mini series and it's a, it's called the AI ready designer. So it's really neat. It actually talks about the first episode talks about what changes, what doesn't in our role and then how we can move forward with that. So yeah, so feel free to check it out. Yeah. And I would say one final thing I would leave with everyone is make sure that we're still the ones that are having those guardrails around what AI can and can't do, and that we guide the process along the way. And just keep involving your stakeholders. Make sure that they're still involved in the process along the way, because that will make whatever curriculum you create the best it can be for your learners.

19:57
Yeah, I think that's a great message. Building the guardrails, getting the stakeholders involved. These are all fundamental concepts from any change management activity. And AI is a huge change management challenge for all of us. So Jackie, thank you so much again for being a guest on the show today. And Zina, thank you for being a great co-host once again.

20:21
Of course. I'm really glad to be part of these conversations, and I love the chance to dive into these big questions with you.

20:27
All right. Thank you both. Thank you.